DIY solar panels, ect.

[solarman]

OK most of you are smart enough to know this but I just got scammed (again). These PDF books or DVD's on solar panels, wind generators, ect. have all been junk. At least the ones I've purchased have been. this link
http://www.makenaturalpower.com was a big waste like all the others I've seen matter of fact if you want it I'll send it to you.
Do your research on line and get a small system to play with before you jump, at least that's the way I started 7-8 years ago.
If your in to alternative energy hit me up I'm not a expert but I will share my experiences of installing 10 systems totally off grid. I have no grid tie experience...but I'm highly opinionated LOL,LOL, so I would have input on that as well.

[Ben Corson]

Hi Solarman---

The kind of roof-top solar installation that I'm most interested in at the moment is for making hot water rather than electricity via photo-voltaics.
We are installing a waterfront in the Amish-made (big firebox) new-style wood cookstove, and into our LP tank water heater...but that leaves us still needing to burn LP in the summer, of course.
North Idaho summers are as blessed with long days and strong sunlight as our winter days are short and dark, so I think a rooftop heat-transfer deal would work pretty well.
Do you have experience and advice in making a homemade solar hot water heater system?

And how to tie it in with a three-energy-source, 4-season kinda system like I'm talking about?

[solarman]

Ben,
All of my work in the last 7 years has been in tropical areas that usually don't have hot water but don't really care except for about 10-15 days a year.
I have played with solar water heaters in the southern USA over the years, There are two types of active solar water heating systems:
*
Direct circulation systems

Pumps circulate household water through the collectors and into the home. They work well in climates where it rarely freezes.
*
Indirect circulation systems

Pumps circulate a non-freezing, heat-transfer fluid through the collectors and a heat exchanger. This heats the water that then flows into the home. They are popular in climates prone to freezing temperatures.

but I understand that you need a indirect system because of your cold winters. These I have NO experience
with. You could build a direct system with the idea that you would drain it before your first hard freeze. But when is summer in northern Idaho? June 15 to July 30? LOL I looked at property in N. Idaho once until I came to my senses and thought about the fact that I think 50 degrees (ABOVE 0 ) is a bad cold snap.

Would you use your LP water heater tank as the main collector to hold heated water in? And just burn gas when you need to? I think that the indirect system, while more expensive, would be a lot more effective in your area.
This would be easier if I could draw U a diagram of how I would try to set this up. I'l get with my kids (the computer experts) about how to draw this out and send it to you. BTW post some more pics. of the farm it looks very nice up there.
I'll get back to you on this, Solarman

[Ben Corson]

Hi Solarman,

I had mostly thought about the direct system, and just draining it about Aug.20th. (Your dates for our summers weren't all THAT far off...:-) believe it or not, we CAN get frosts after about the 20th of August, and in fact, we did this year. Planting usually happens by Memorial Day for gardens, by May 1st for grain. Tomatoes and the like, and even corn are started indoors and transplanted.
Elevation is key of course. The County seat, Bonners Ferry, is at about 1500', and here we are at 2650'...in fact, we are the highest cultivated farm in the County, to my knowledge...all else above us, is just mainly grazed as pastured meadows.
Suffice it to say we're not a net exporter of guavas and papayas.

Unfortunately, I often space such details, as draining this and that, and so going with a direct system is potentially problematic.

So, an indirect system...it bothers me a bit, knowing that heat transfer involves latent inefficiencies, (not to mention the high cost now of food-grade antifreeze!) but I guess that there's always trade-offs, eh? I am also a little reluctant, aiming as I am to go off-grid at some point, to install a large phantom load like a circulation pump, running continuously...but ah well, add a little more electric-generating capacity, I guess.

To answer another question, yes, indeedy, I would use my tank of the propane water heater. In fact, to use it in this application is the only reason I still have the thing...every other residence (and the Dairy) on the farm is equipped with tankless flash-heater-type Bosch Aqua-star units that are MUCH more efficient. And I hope to never use the LP unless it's a couple weeks of solid rain in the spring, summer, or fall, when it's still too warm to fire up the cookstove, but too cloudy to do us much good.

I do have a spiffy li'l booklet from the quasi-Amish non-electric catalogue retailer Lehman's of Kidron, Ohio...entitled "Hot Water from your Wood Stove", or something like that. It shows several different possible configurations and combinations of heat sources, working together. But if you care to add a schematic or drawing I'd appreciate it very much, since any information is good. It seems to me, you can't have too many perspectives, if you're willing to research enough and ask enough questions to avoid or sort out the confusion, that's how we learn.

I suppose that there are commercial units available, I do see installations in the South and Southwest that look pretty "off-the-shelf". But I need to keep the cost down, and besides, all the alternative guys up here don't even know of any commercially-made units, so they're not exactly in the loop any more than I am. So by default, home-made is where I'm at with this project.

An antifreeze solution for a transfer medium would need a tank to transfer IN, right? So it seems that the system would require two tanks, because you'd still need a mixing tank to pull from for direct using for potable water, right? Plus, tanks that are made for the purpose have coils inside for better transfer, right, whereas the standard type water heater tanks just have a straight ( dry "fire tube") central pipe to transfer heat by circulation / convection, right?
Then (with two large tanks) I get into problems of limited house floor space, so I think of a rooftop mounted tank, which takes me back to the direct design...just drain in late summer. Or I suppose it COULD be enclosed in a super-insulated box up by the ridge, so snowload wouldn't be too much of a factor in tending to push against a bulky tank, downhill on a metal roof in the winter.
Although there is no attic to put the extra tank in, there IS a shed roof over a far-too-flat-a-pitch "real" roof, so maybe I could stash the tank in betweenst the two, and not only superinsulate it, but put electric heat tape around it as well. Another phantom load, I guess.

Just sharing some thoughts. Thanks for your response!

I would invite you up for a sleigh ride with a bonfire and a punchbowl of hot spiced spiked cider...but by the time it warms up to above 50 degrees, I'd probably have to put wheels on the sleigh, and the atmosphere and mood would be all changed. That's when you can't tell the difference between locals who can't stand the heat and start ripping off their clothes and the Californian tourists who occasionally like going nude. Except some of them have TANS.
Too many distractions for a good sleigh-ride. Better to break out the water skis, tie 'em to the drawbar on the forecart, and go mud surfin'. Better odds anyway...we have two mud seasons here, after all.

Stay high, healthy, and happy! --- Ben

[Bill Campbell]

Ben,
Check out the circulating pumps from Ivan Labs. Very pricy compared to a Taco or Gundfos but probably worth it if you are running on solar.

[TeeByrd]

Hey solarman,

I have bought a manual called 'Poor mans guide to wind mills.' I haven't been able to collect the parts to try it out, the toughest to find is a forklift sized battery that it uses to store the power. But it also goes into details on how to clean the batteries out to be reusable. Interested in swapping the manuals to check em out?

[solarman]

Hi, I have had lots of luck getting large deep discharge batteries at a battery company that also sells used batteries, look for someone that will sell for the scrap lead price. Stay away from batteries that have expanded or that are cracked. Get 2-3, try to get like a Rolls or Trojan L16 even the little L105's, and recharge for a few days and see what happens. I have also used EDTA from Trailhead supply in Eugene, Or. It causes the sulfide crystals to dissolve as a gas and cleans the plates. I have got almost the normal life out of used batteries doing this. I will send you what I have( on the solar panel B.S. if I can find it..) if you give me your snail mail address. At this moment I don't have any place that I can place a windmill except maybe on the beach on a island right off the coast of Belize.
My problem there is that the guy that wants it has almost no mechanical aptitude and wind gennies are high maintenance.
Let me know how your project turn out...Alan

[Jay Nimmic]

Hey, I almost made the same mistake and bought a DIY guide for solar energy. Thankfully , I researched it a bit and heard alot of critism.
Power4your home or something like that it was called.
I read one review, it did say although vague, it did have some interesting diagrams. He said he followed it to the T, but when he tried to tie into his panel, it shorted and started a fire.
Im an electrician ( unemployed ATM, unfortunately) , SO I can imagine what might have gone wrong. But the fact that he was able to get it going enough to generate electricity at all is getting me curious.
Ive found alot off good info so far. Im especially interested about what inverter to use to change from DC to AC. and also where to buy from? Ebay, i guess. It would be nice to find a used one.
Does anybody have any suggestions. Ive seen them range from 150-300$. It seems like if Im going to go thru all this trouble, I should buy one capable of handling a load that could power a whole small house , rather than just one circuit.
Anyone who has bought oone of these and used it, Which one did you buy and how much did it cost? How many amps can it put out at once.
I know DC is different than AC, and dont really know much about DC.
But if a battery is 12 volts, and I calculate needing about 6000-7000 watts to run a small house,( which is highballing it but too much is better than not enough.)
Then you would need about 600A . Assuming you have enough solar panels, how many batteries would I need?
I see one for sale for 200$, it says it can put out 3000watts, but 6000 watt max. How long can it maintain 6000 watts? many appliances draw a huge load for a split second as it turns on. so something that runs on 15A might draw 20A for a second. will this blow out the inverter if It gets really high draw for a split second?
I also see a used one for a good price. It says these quotes which dont make sense to me,:
INVERTER IMPUT 12.6 VDC AT UP TO 110 AMPS

INVERTER OUTPUT 120 VAC RMS60 Hz

OUTPUT POWER 1100 WATTS

CHARGER IMPUT 120 VAC ,60Hz AT 10 AMPS

CHARGER OUTPUT 50 AMPS

Is the charger something different? according to my math, 50 amps putting out 1100 watts would only be using 22 volts.... the voltage cannot fluctuate, so it must be the amperage that can vary depending on how many bateries and solar panels hooked up, right. So does this mean it can put out up to 50A ?
What am I missing. any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Jay Nimmic]

How important is it to have a pure sine wave versus modified sine wave inverter.
Can a modifided sine wave inverter power a TV? computer?